Recovering Adventists's topics - tribe.net

C.E.A.S.E. has been created by victims/survivors of sexual, physical and spiritual abuse

2007-08-13T21:59:51Z

committed by employees and volunteers of the world-wide Seventh-day Adventist Church. Devoted to educating church leadership about the prevalence of these abuses within the denomination, we want to bring about changes to church policy in order to protect others from the devastation we experienced.

Through networking with other victims/survivors, we can be more effective agents for change within the denomination. Through learning that our stories are not isolated, WE can become less isolated emotionally
which will have an exponential impact on our individual healing processes.

*Background Information*
Abuse is made possible by secrecy and shame; healing can be made possible by the honesty, courage, pain and anger we can channel toward reaching the following
goals:
-To protect others.
-To support the establishment of denominational policies that effectively address the healing processes of members, victims/survivors and perpetrators.
-Turn the Seventh-day Adventist Church into an UN-safe place for perpetrators by educating members about prevention and protection. Although abuse happens in every denomination, C.E.A.S.E. is limited to the SDA denomination for several reasons:
-Adventists hold in common many unique doctrines and beliefs, often striving to be "different" and set apart.
-By choice or perceived necessity, many Adventists have isolated themselves and their institutions from the larger community of Christianity which has resulted in a prevailing belief that the SDA church is not susceptible to abuses plaguing other denominations.
-The lack of effective administrative procedures for helping primary and secondary victims/survivors heal from abuse within the denomination has resulted in the silencing of victims/survivors who are too intimidated
and traumatized to speak out publicly about the injustices that they have suffered at the hands of "God's ordained".
-Some victims/survivors were betrayed by the SDA doctrines that were used by perpetrators to manipulate and control them within the context of Adventism.
-As victims/survivors, we need a vehicle to call for change within the SDA denomination and a venue for our voices that will be received by conventional Adventist organizations, institutions and publications as only a publication dedicated to "Adventist" sensitive issues is capable of.

http://www.advocateweb.com/cease/

http://sda-watch.stumbleupon.com/

posted in Recovering Adventists - 0 replies

The great controversy by Ellen G. White

2007-03-20T21:45:47Z

Check this video out. It's a 4 mins. South Park style video...
This is what she said how sin got started. What a funny video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCDfSwPVdqY

posted in Recovering Adventists - 0 replies

Ellen G. White

2007-03-20T21:25:27Z

Here are some scary facts about how popular Ellen's writing's and books are, I forgot she had that many book's out brain washing parents into making the life of kids one of torture and guilt.
-Tony

Ellen G. White lived from (1827-1915)

During her lifetime she wrote more than 5,000 periodical articles and 40 books; but today, including compilations from her 50,000 pages of manuscript, more than 100 titles are available in English. She is the most translated woman writer in the entire history of literature, and the most translated American author of either gender. Her writings cover a broad range of subjects, including religion, education, social relationships, evangelism, prophecy, publishing, nutrition, and management. Her life-changing masterpiece on successful Christian living, Steps to Christ, has been published in more than 140 languages. Seventh-day Adventists believe that Mrs. White was more than a gifted writer; they believe she was appointed by God as a special messenger to draw the world's attention to the Holy Scriptures and help prepare people for Christ's second advent. From the time she was 17 years old until she died 70 years later, Adventist think God gave her approximately 2,000 visions and dreams. The visions varied in length from less than a minute to nearly four hours. The knowledge and counsel received through these revelations she wrote out to be shared with others. Thus her special writings are accepted by Seventh-day Adventists as inspired by God.

If you wonder what she look's like she is the main tribe photo.

posted in Recovering Adventists - 3 replies

Scattered to the winds, forgotten but reunited by the sin of electricity!

2007-03-20T21:16:11Z

My name is Eric. I know I'm a day late and a dollar short finding this group, but it is comforting knowing that I've found a group of people who won't be lied to anymore. This discussion doesn't have to be a bitch-fest, It should be a celebration. We've escaped the confines of a victorian era cult with it's brain damaged prophetess. How many others can say that? Damn few.
Reading Ken's post, I can almost copy and paste what he wrote for my own life story. However, I'm not an Athiest (yet), there are other religions and belief structures that require less and promise more, if that is what your soul desires. But I know I feel better when I give money to someone who does right, but is weak in spirit (Easily lied to, taken advantage of) than I do when I put money in the offering plate at church. BTW, that IS a tax write off at the end of the year, and you can put X amount for how much you gave, even if you don't go to church anymore. Remember that when you file your income taxes.
Growing up around Adventists can make you think that something is seriously wrong with you. But we're all alive, we escaped Jonestown, and there are hundreds of stories we can tell and just as many lessons on what not to do to our own children - if you choose to have them.
I live a simple philosophy now. I believe in That Which Is. If you call him God, thats ok. If you believe his son died for you to make it so that when you die, paradise is yours, cool. If you walk outside naked and scream at the sun for 20 minutes everyday, Great; at least you're giving credit where it is due. Its proven that without the sun, there wouldn't be life on earth. But without the belief of Adventisim, I'm doing as well as can be expected.
It used to be that black sheep of the church, like us for example, left alone and never found each other to turn around as a group and call bullshit. Last time I checked, electricity is a sin, as is the internet, chairs with lumbar support, the telephone, paved roads, the television, vehicles, the abacus, sporks, jewelry, ottomans, cabbage, and the stereopticon. Let us rejoice in these guilty pleasures, and get to know one another better, I'm sure we've got a lot to learn from one another. I hope to talk one on one with you all soon.

posted in Recovering Adventists - 1 reply

A very verbose essay I wrote years ago, I thought you might care :)

2007-02-26T01:59:45Z

Test of Time
An essay on why Christianity has lasted and possible origins of the faith

I was having a discussion with a Christian friend of mine the other day. I grew up as a member of the Seventh-day Adventist Church and attended private church schools all the way through college. I’ll have to admit that I was playing a little bit unfair. My friend was a new believer and had not had time to explain away all the contradictions and seeming contradictions within the bible and between the bible and her own religion.

This is a skill that develops over time. For instance, a person who believes that you are saved by faith alone and not works will cling to the promises in Romans, explain away the works oriented faith gospel in James, and figure out a way to throw all the laws in the old testament out. All types of Christianity do this to a certain extent in order to tailor the bible to their religion. This explains why so many different Christian religions all claim to be following the same bible.

As I mentioned earlier, I was being a little bit unfair and playing the devil’s advocate. I was questioning her about why, if she believed in the bible, she wasn’t adhering to some of the requirements in Leviticus. Of course as a new Christian, she didn’t realize that she was required to seclude herself during her menstrual period, had to offer a burnt sacrifice at the temple and wait seven days afterward before she could resume normal sexual relations with her husband. I went on for a while asking her things of that sort and to her credit (I suppose) she was able to explain away many of these dilemmas.

She became a little frustrated, however, and posed a question to me. “If Christianity is wrong, why has it been around for so long? Why do so many intelligent people believe it? Why, when the bible has been studied for millenniums by the top intellectual Christians and atheists alike, has it not been disproved?”

She asked a fair question. If Christianity is false, how has it withstood the test of time. There are several fallacies of logic assumed in the question, however. For instance, there is the assumption that intelligent people cannot believe something that is wrong for long periods of time. I will use a particularly obvious example. For millenniums it was believed that the world was flat. Smart people believed this. The Christian church proclaimed disinters of this idea to be heretics. Guess what, the world is round. This is also a good example of how Christianity alters its interpretation of scripture when faced with irrefutable facts.

I’ll continue on that tangent for a second. My own church, the Seventh-day Adventists, early in their history “figured out” that Jesus would return in 1843. When he did not, they recalculated and became certain that they had forgotten to add one year in the original calculation. The “real” date was 1844. When he did not come in 1844, they sat down and decided that 1844 must not have really been the date of his return but that it must have been the date that something else important happened. They created a theological idea that in 1844 Jesus entered the “heavenly sanctuary” and that the “investigative judgement” had begun. There is no need to go into detail about what the above theological ideas are, the important thing to notice is that whenever their interpretation of scripture was disproved they revised it to incorporate the irrefutable reality. The last time they were a little smarter, however, instead of continuing to move the date forward until they had lost all credibility, they changed the event into one that could not be disproved. Oops! I am getting ahead of myself.

This brings me to the last part of her question. Why hasn’t Christianity been disproved? People have been trying to disprove it for at least a thousand years. Why haven’t they been successful? Plain and simple, Christianity can not be disproved.

This can mean one of two things: Christianity is correct or simply that it is impossible to gather the evidence needed to disprove it. This uncovers the final fallacy in her argument that if you cannot disprove something, it must be true. If this were the case, we would have to believe in all sorts of things. We would have to believe that Buddhists, Muslims, Jews, Catholics, Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists, Pentecostals, and Seventh-day Adventists are all correct. After all, they all believe in realities that can not be seen. This poses a problem because, speaking from the viewpoint I am familiar with, Adventists believe that Buddhists, Muslims, Jews and Catholics, to name a few, are all wrong.

Therefore, the belief that if you can’t disprove it, it must be true creates a paradox. There are too many mutually exclusive beliefs that can not be disproved. You always get hit with the tail of the argument, which states if the reason that you can’t disprove it is because you can’t observe it, then you can’t prove it either. And herein lies the beauty of Christianity. The fact that it can’t be proven or disproved doesn’t deter its believers.

Think about the basic premise of most Christian religions. You make a decision or have a conviction that is valuable to your unseen, unseeable creator because it is based on faith, not what is observable. In order to allow you to make this decision of faith purely, he chooses not to reveal himself to you except through ambiguous signs that are open to interpretation. The final outcome of your decision is not observable until later either. Some believe that when you die your spirit goes to heaven or to hell. Others believe that at some unknown time in the future god will raise the dead and they will receive their reward or punishment. Either way, the outcome is not observable at present and will only become observable after it is too late.

I will not be so bold as to suggest that this is what happened but think about it. If some people got together and tried to design a myth that would stand the test of time, they could not have created a better one than Christianity. It is based on an argument that can not be refuted and there is a tremendous motivation for people to believe it.

In a college psychology class, I learned about a psychologist, I think it was Jung, who suggested that the belief in religion was motivated and perpetuated by people’s inability to deal with their own mortality. What better motivation can there be to believe in the idea that, if you are a good person, you will go to a happy place and live forever. As a further motivating factor for those who aren’t so easily swayed or respond better to negative reinforcement, if you reject the idea, you will go to a very scary place and will be tortured for eternity.

If you look a little deeper into the requirements you must meet in order to go to the happy place, you can catch a glimpse of what might have been the motivation of the creators.

The very basis of Christianity is the teaching that we are not good enough. We are sinful unworthy people who do not deserve to live. It is only through taking on someone else’s goodness that we are able to obtain our eternal reward.

We are told as Christians to emulate the life of Christ. Jesus was a commoner who never aspired to get any glory for himself. Whenever people would praise him, he would give the credit to his father in heaven. He was incredibly humble. While bible stories place him performing all sorts of wondrous acts, he never took any credit and never performed them for personal gain.

This is evidenced by the story of when Satan came to Jesus while he was fasting and tempted him to turn the stones into bread. He tempted him to throw himself off the temple to bring glory to his powers. Jesus was not swayed and did not use his power to promote his self-interest. This story has been translated into the idea that making wishes for yourself will always end in calamity.

Take for example the popular television shows that one might not think are influenced by Christian philosophy: Bewitched, I Dream of Genie, Sabrina the Teenage Witch, Charmed, and even Superman. All these shows are about people who have incredible supernatural powers and yet are required only to use these powers for the good of others. If they use their powers for self-interest all hell breaks loose. Everyone knows that when you find a Genie, the only wish that does not turn sour is the wish that grants the Genie his freedom.

Not only does Christianity teach us that it is wrong to wish for a better life, it teaches us that in order to please our creator we should freely give what we have no matter how poor we are. It is more blessed to give than to receive. This can be illustrated numerous times in scripture. A good example of this is the parable that Jesus told praising the poor woman who gave her last coin as an offering to God.

This scripture also teaches us that we should not draw attention to the fact that we are making sacrifices. We should always be humble and if someone praises us, we should redirect the praise to God, its rightful owner. A rich man was giving his offering at the same time as the poor woman and he was making a big deal about how much he was giving. The end conclusion that Jesus drew was that the man should not have drawn any attention to his act of giving, did not deserve any praise and should have given a larger percentage of what he owned.

A key teaching of Christianity is that you should love your neighbor as yourself. The “Golden Rule” is “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” This is the aspect of Christianity that I call good citizenship. Mr. Spock from Star Trek believed that the good of the many outweighed the good of the few or the one. Christianity takes this one step further and says that the good of any other person outweighs the good of the Christian. This aspect of Christianity would create a smoothly operating society. If every person in the society were acting with everyone else’s best interest ahead of their own, the society would be better for everyone. Strangely, this is the aspect that people have the hardest time complying with.

Communism is based on a similar principle. Communism believes that individuality is the enemy of society. That instead of a person working toward personal gain, each person should work for the gain of society as a whole. This is great on paper. It is nonexistent in action. Strange that communist countries have uniformly rejected Christianity. Possibly if they were to endorse it they would not be so short lived. That is the beauty of Capitalism. The system depends on people’s desire to promote their own well being.

Another key teaching of Christianity is the belief in nonviolence. A Christian is taught that if a man hits one cheek, you should turn and let him hit the other. If a man wants your coat, you should give him your shirt too. The truly devout Christian will allow himself to be killed without even putting up a fight. The early martyrs are good examples of this. Inherent in Christian philosophy is the belief that when you are wronged, it is better not to stand up for yourself.

Even the glaring examples of violence by Christians do not contradict this. The only time that Christianity condones violence is during Holy Wars. If another group of people stands in the way of the goals of the people of Christ it is okay to kill them. If someone stands in the way of your personal goals, it is not even okay to resist.

Jesus respected those in authority. When asked should a Christian pay tax, he pointed to the face of Caesar on the coin and said give to Caesar what is Caesar’s. Christianity does not condone revolution. Revolution is inherently self-serving and therefore a sin. Even if you are unhappy with the way your rulers are behaving, the good Christian must grin and bear it.

The crowning achievement by the framers of Christianity, however, would have been the way a person who follows these rules is rewarded. They are taught to believe that if the life of a good Christian is not rewarding that it is okay. Many Christian hymns come to mind. One in particular:

When peace like a river attendeth my way
When sorrow like sea billows roll
Whatever my lot, though hast taught me to say
It is well, it is well with my soul.

You will receive your reward in heaven. The harder your life is, the more sacrifices you make on this earth, the less credit you take for yourself the greater your reward will be after you die. No one could dream up a better scam! (I’m not saying that it is. I am merely saying that if someone were trying, they could not create a better one.)

This idea is supported in popular Christian fiction. The classic story, Pilgrims Progress, is about a pilgrim who suffers through life carrying his “burden” of Christianity. This is referencing the command of Jesus that his followers “Take up their cross” and follow him. It also bears reference to Paul’s metaphor that he had “fought a good fight, run a good race.” Throughout the story, he is tempted to go astray or to cast off his burden. At the end of his journey of hardship and suffering he is rewarded. In this story, the journey is metaphorical of the life of a Christian. Your suffering continues throughout your journey or your earthly life. The Christian faith is even referred to as a burden. At the end of your journey and only at the end, do you reap the rewards for your life of hardship.

Think about this. We have already determined that there is no way of disproving Christianity. People are motivated to believe it because it alleviates the intrinsic fear of death. Christianity works as a good method of crowd control by curbing the people’s destructive tendencies toward self-advancement and violence. It makes people content to live their mundane lives without striving for more. It actually gives people a motivation to give their property away. The best part, however, is that it perpetuates itself. With ideas such as Communism, which promote similar behaviors, people soon realize that they are not getting the promised rewards and often throw the idea out. Christians believe that they will receive their reward after they are dead. Christianity even teaches that the worse your life is now, the better it will be for you when you are dead. Therefore, people will enthusiastically pursue the goals of Christianity for countless generations, believing that they will receive a reward that they can not see and can not prove exists, after their race on earth is done.

A smart group of people could easily figure out a way to turn this faith to their advantage. Constantinian did. He became the spokesperson for the “if you can’t beat em, join em” philosophy. How do you think the early Christian church became the Roman Catholic Church? Constantinian, the emperor of Rome, came to the conclusion that he would never be able to defeat the Christians, therefore he converted and in the process declared himself the leader of the Christian church.

I am certain that Christianity has been used for political gain a million times. How do we know that the very first “Christians” didn’t invent Christianity? Maybe so, maybe not. I dare you to prove otherwise.

posted in Recovering Adventists - 7 replies

Why Guilt???

2007-02-25T01:41:53Z

After reading a few of the stunningly well written articles ...I am remimded of my recent venture into understanding the Adventist point of view. Why, in almost all of the religions that I have encountered is God portrayed as vengeful and judgemental. If it is the main goal of organized religion as a whole to lure people in, wouldn't it benefit them to show God as forgiving, understanding, fair and loving??? Even just to make a good show of it....
I was amazed at the force that most Adventists feel must be used to sway your thinking, not in a day or a week but NOW!
I asked, after feeling a bit uncomfortable about a lesson which focused on the second coming, if I must decide how I felt about all the information immediately. I was told ....."what if you die tommorrow????" "Don't you want to be included in the new kingdom....etc..."
I have still not decided what if ANY formal religion fits me...I am always trying to see things from different viewpoints and not become totally closed against anyones feelings. So far, I think that the Sufi relgion speaks to my heart most strongly......maybe I just like Rumi's poetry. Who know's? But I do think that the day that you become judgemental.....well, it just takes something away from trying to be empathetic to what others have experienced.
On a lighter note ...as a dancer, it was giving me fits trying to bring myself to give up dance. To me that is like air.....What kind of a religion takes such a harsh view on what is such a natural expression? Where is the harm in ballet....or flamenco.....even folkloric bellydance? I obviously don't get it!
Jahan

posted in Recovering Adventists - 4 replies

Hi, I'm LeAnn and I'm a Recovering Adventist...

2006-12-18T19:10:53Z

(everyone waves and says "Hi, LeAnn!")

I joined the church as a young adult, so I didn't have the 'benefit' of going to academy, campmeeting, etc. I got into it through my grandmother, who was raised adventist. My husband has a couple of friends who are Adventists, but they don't know I'm a former one ( I'm now Jewish). They invited us to a picnic last summer with some of their church friends, and they were talking about the Heritage Singers and Del Delker. It was so hard for me to keep from laughing, I hadn't heard those names in years! Finally, I said oh, yeah, I remember them, my grandmother was an Adventist!

Clay, this is great.

posted in Recovering Adventists - 5 replies

Adult adventist friends

2006-12-05T22:10:55Z

I have one adult friend who I grew up with and is a (mostly) practicing Adventist. We still hang out sometimes, since we have pretty similar secular interest. We don't talk about religion, but my friend is anything but a fundamentalist and I think he would accept and appreciate my (lack of) beliefs.

Do you keep in touch with your childhood Adventist friends? How does that go?

posted in Recovering Adventists - 1 reply

I'm Curious......"Seductive"?

2006-11-21T08:20:07Z

.....what is the current Adventist view on modesty in dress? Was I just envolved with a super uptight, possesive man that supported his views by blaming the church.....or do they really have strong RULES as to dress, jewelry, etc. I think "seductive" was the phrase that he used to excess!! He could quote each phrase from the Bible in which women were portrayed as devious and evil....

posted in Recovering Adventists - 6 replies

Still Christian?

2006-11-21T08:05:31Z

I'm curious how many of you recovering Adventists still consider yourself to be Christian? If so, what religion did you find to give you what you were looking for?

Erik.

posted in Recovering Adventists - 4 replies

Was I Wrong?

2006-09-20T06:30:32Z

Here's the real reason I left the church.
My father was dying of an inoperable tumor in his liver. He was on his way out, literally. He was in the hospice in Longview, which is a wonderful place. The people there are absolutely the best at what they do. My father was never really one to believe in God, but at that point, I wanted him to have a last shot at making his peace. I called our pastor, who will remain nameless, and told him what was happening. I wanted him to come pray with my father. He said that because my father wasn't an adventist, he couldn't come. That pretty much sealed my opinion of the church right there. My then brother-in-law was a minister, but he was out of town. Sooo, I prayed with my father. He was on so much morphine he couldn't talk, but he understood what was going on. I prayed that God would look in my father's heart and see the good that was there. I thanked Him for giving a kind and loving man to us children for our father. As I prayed out loud, I watched his face. The lines of worry in his face softened. It looked like he was feeling peaceful. Maybe something happened right then. I don't know, but I hope it did.
My question to the church is, why would they let a man die without the chance to be redeemed, regardless of their religion or lack of one? How could they do that? They turned their back on my father, so I turned mine on them.

posted in Recovering Adventists - 10 replies

Coming out of the Adventist closet

2006-05-26T21:42:54Z

I have been having a sweet bitter experience in my life. About a year ago I started my quest to find out the origin of my Religion (Seventh-day Adventist). In this road I found out amazing things that the organization has been hiding from the members. After ruling out how wrong all my teachings have been, I decided to find out if there is at least a GOD. I have read many interesting books and experience different things in my life. In March I went to visit my familiy in Venezuela. I have a very interesting family. In this trip full of beautiful experiences, I found my self coming out of the closet as a gay man and as a non-religious person. My family was in shock to find out that I was no longer going to church on saturdays. They didn't even question me on my sexuality a whole lot, but on my lack of faith toward the church.

I was trying my best to share a beautiful time with them. My parents are in their 80's, an almost every member of my family is a SDA. I was trying to show them how happy I am now and how much I love them. But all I could feel and see in their faces was a sadness toward me. They were horrified that I was going to end up in the eternal fire that will comsum this earth and that they would not see me again. Many times I sat down and poured my heart out to them and let them know that I finally have found the road to peace in my life. But in their faces, I found pain. I love my family but I also love myself, and I could not sacrifice the beauty that I have found within me to follow an old tradition that doesn't make sense.

It has been a tough path to walk on, and one that I have been avoiding for a while. I am very content with my life and excited to look forward in discovering new things in my life. I love living this moment and sharing my life with others is a wonderful thing. I realize that they want the best for me. But their best is just an illution that they have learned to live with. Beauty, peace, love is everywhere and is exciting when you discover it!.

love and peace to all of you
chicoburner

posted in Recovering Adventists - 0 replies

Im Ok, you're Ok

2006-04-07T02:31:12Z

Well, Im actually ok with being an ex adventist. I don't feel so much burned anymore, I just believe it's not (and wasn't) for me. Im a Quaker now...but I still wish we'd meet on Saturday :)

posted in Recovering Adventists - 7 replies

A tiny bit of my sad youth as a Adventist!

2006-02-17T22:59:31Z

I was adopted at the age of 3 and my new parents very devote 7th DAY ADVENTIST'S and right then my childhood was lost I really am still like a little boy, We couldn't play completive sports, watch T.V. or go to the theater, And we couldn't do anything from Friday night to Saturday Night, So every Saturday morning we had two hard boiled eggs for breakfast and toast so my mom didn't have to cook, because Ellen G white was really focused on how we treated are body, I grew up Vegetarian like 90% or more of 7th day adventists and we couldn't snack in between meals. So my mom had me and my little brothers help her wheel the refrigerator into her room at night so us hungry little kids wouldn't get up in the night and eat. We couldn't go out after 9 because, my parents believed nothing but temptations happened in the night and so they put pad locks on the doors and the sky light in our rooms so we could not sneak out, I grew up and hadn't been to a movie before I turned 18, 0 concerts and had to sneak out to see girls, I'm lucky they didn't turn me gay.

(If you have any questions about 7th day adventists ask me and I will post my answers to them)

posted in Recovering Adventists - 9 replies

SDA

2006-02-01T05:01:05Z

I know more people have been fucked by the Church... where are they?

posted in Recovering Adventists - 1 reply

Correspondence with a current Adventist

2005-03-22T08:09:05Z

The following is a letter that I wrote tonight to an Adventist who I've been corresponding with a little. I redacted his/her name for their privacy but thought that people in this tribe might be interested in my train of thought.

"Hi XXXX,

Thanks for your message. I think you are coming across just fine. You seem like a good guy and I wish you and your family the best. I'm always interested when I hear the stories of other Adventists. I'm always shocked where I hear about people who left the Adventist church and didn't throw out Christianity altogether because my experience was one of reason, questioning, study, self-discovery and after putting Adventism and Christianity to the test of logic and my own acid test (whether or not, given the uncertain nature of reality, I choose to place my faith in an arbitrary and unfair god) both come up desperately lacking. I find it even more peculiar when a seemingly good and intelligent person chooses (rather than is born into) Adventism.

Regardless, I wouldn't describe my journey as a loss of faith, hope or belief in a higher power but rather one of enlightenment. If indeed god is the god of the bible, I will stand defiant before him and declare myself better than him at the day of judgement. I do not believe this to be the case. I believe that all life and space and matter is one and connected at an energy, spiritual and subatomic level and that reality, life and the spirit are all un-definable intangibles. In this sense it is impossible for one to be judged by god because in a very real sense whatever power there may be is one with me and the entire universe. I no longer live under the weight of guilt and self-loathing which Christianity brings.

I was discussing with my brother in law (another very vocal apostate Adventist) how at the age of six I would sit and play mind games with myself trying not to feel good about being humble so that I would in fact be humble. Instead I became confused and frustrated. Then I reached puberty and any chance I had of ever keeping the commandments went out the window as my libido arrived, although this was not for lack of effort on my part. I would pray and read the bible constantly in order to stop sinning. I would hear about the concept of probation, a time near the end, when god would sanctify his church at which time their faith would become flesh and they would no longer sin. I was told that a sin during probation was a mortal sin and I was convinced, given my inability to stop sinning in mind and body now, that I would absolutely sin during probation and join the wicked wailing and gnashing their teeth in the lake of fire. I would cling to the promises in Romans about faith alone saving the believer and shudder at the dose of reality in James saying that faith without works is nonexistent.

I grew up as a troubled, guilty, terrified young man. I didn't enjoy any of the things, which I now take great pleasure in, because they were sins. In short, I misspent my youth trying to be good, trying to be the person I thought I should be rather than being the person I was. I wasted a large portion of the only reality I know to exist chasing after one which not only is unlikely but is ruled by an infantile unjust dictator of a god. I mean what was Lucifer's big sin? He questioned god. What was the sin in the Garden of Eden? They questioned god. Genesis spells it out rather plainly that the fall of man was because he now knew the difference between good and evil. He wasn't content to accept everything god told him at face value and in so questioning had become like god. For this reason god withheld the fruit of the tree of life for fear he would become a god.

Genesis 3:22 (NIV) And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

I should also remind you that my father had no clue about my torment and most of the world around me perceived me as a healthy well adjusted young Christian. I now look back at the way my parents raised me with great contempt. They sheltered me from thinking and in so doing allowed me to grow up without ever learning who I was or what I believed. I beg of you, please force your children to think. If they come to the same reality as you and it works for them that is one thing but the worst thing you can possibly do is let them believe in your reality simply because they believe in you.

The Christian argument is that living a Christian life costs you nothing if Christianity is false but living the life of a non-believer costs you everything if Christianity is correct. I would counter that living the life but not truly having faith gains you nothing if Christianity is correct and squandering the only reality that we know for certain exists in hopes of a reward in the heaven costs you everything if Christianity is false. It costs you the only chance you may have to live.

I hope that you are hearing me and that I’m not coming off as being too confrontational. I’m extremely passionate about this subject and look back at my Christian upbringing as the most damaging experience of my life. It took away twenty years that I can’t get back and still leaves deep scars of guilt and self-loathing. All this was brought about by the hands of two loving, caring, gentle, attentive, well meaning parents who I hold no contempt for, love dearly, and am very close to to this day.

Regards,
Clay

posted in Recovering Adventists - 0 replies

Welcome

2005-03-22T06:16:47Z

Hello. My name is Clay and I'm an Adventist......well not really. You know how an alcoholic never refers to their problem in the past tense? It's never, "I was an alcoholic" but always "I am". Adventism is kind of the same way. I disavow it in every way but am still a vegetarian and am a horrible dancer. I still live my life under a heavy cloud of subconscious guilt. I'm still an Adventist in many ways. So whether or not you feel as deeply damaged as I do or you simply attended Adventist Schools for a few years feel free to join. This is a safe place where you will not be judged. If I catch any practicing Adventist in here, however, I'll throw your ass out. This is a safe place and no guilt is allowed. I look forward to meeting and learning about all of your experiences.

posted in Recovering Adventists - 8 replies

more Tony talk

2005-03-07T08:30:29Z

This is from a edited message I sent to a member in this tribe.

Is'nt it funny when you are true to yourself and sleep with a girl you adore, but your not married, it's the worse kind of sin. I think being true to yourself is the best way to live! It's the only way you can ever really find love or true freindship and a career your going to love. That was my biggest thing I hated about the Adventist Church, they made people think it was wrong to question the Church or the World around you, I think If your going to join a religion and beleive something you should study the other relgions in the world and always question. Minds are made and should question the world around them. I still beleive in Jesus or some kind of God who made us, but would never join any church. I think there is much to learn in the world and don't want to be told by others I'm a sinner when I just want to be true to my mind and be sure why I beleive what I beileve. I really think it's stupid they would kick someone out who has been a member for years just because they hit a place in there life when they question things and found another girl they want to live with, but just isn't ready for the big jump of marriage. I don't think a church should judge, they should be a place you can go to find yourself.

-Tony

posted in Recovering Adventists - 1 reply

The ADD version (A Poem I wrote at about the same time)

2005-03-07T08:25:37Z

Ode to an Unseen god

I cried to God, "Where are you?"
I cried aloud to the heavens, "Hear me!"
I shouted with a loud voice, "I am!"
I whispered to an ever present god
"Please show me proof of your existence.
Please show me evidence of your love."
Silence was his only reply.

I asked my mother, "Who is God?"
I asked my father, "How do you know?"
I asked my teacher, "How can I know?"
I studied the scriptures
and the writings of learned men
to gain insight and truth.
Nonsense was the only reply.

I cried to God, "Give me faith!"
I asked my pastor, "How can I believe?"
I asked the devout, "How can you believe?"
I turned to reason and asked myself
"Can I believe in the
god of my fathers?"
"I don't think so." was my reply.

--Clay Clifford

posted in Recovering Adventists - 0 replies

History of the Seventh-Day Adventist Church

2005-02-25T08:01:56Z

Here is some History of the seventh-day adventist church I got of a adventist web site, for those who don't know and would like to know.

-Tony

The origin of the Seventh-day Adventists (SDAs) can be traced to the Millerite Movement of the 19th Century. This movement was largely responsible for what has been called the Great second advent awakening. William Miller (1782-1849) was a farmer who settled in upstate New York after the war of 1812. He was originally a Deist (a person who believes that God created the universe but has not been actively involved since). After two years of private Bible study, Miller converted to Christianity and became a Baptist lay leader. He was convinced that the Bible contained coded information about the end of the world and the Second Coming of Jesus. He also realized that he had an obligation to teach his findings to others. In 1831, he started to preach; the next year, he wrote articles about his findings. In 1833, he published a pamphlet on end-time prophecy. In 1836, his book Evidences from Scripture and History of the Second Coming of Christ about the Year 1843was published.

One of the key texts that he interpreted was in the Book of Daniel: Daniel heard two angels talking; one asked how long it will take until the destruction of the Temple is avenged and it is restored to its rightful state. The other replied in Daniel 8:14

"And he said onto me, unto 2,300 days, then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."

Miller believed that the 2,300 days were each of one year duration and that the interval started in 457 BCE. He concluded that the cleansing of the temple (i.e. the Second Coming) would occur sometime between two spring equinoxes: 1843-MAR-21 to 1844-MAR-21. He found other methods of calculating the end time which also seemed to point to the year 1843 CE. In common with all other predictions of the Second Coming, the end didn't happen on cue. Samuel Snow, a follower of Miller, then interpreted the "tarrying time" referred to in Habakkuk 2:3 as equal to 7 months and 10 days, delaying the end time to 1844-OCT-22. That prophecy also did not come to pass. Many believers left the movement in what has become known as The Great Disappointment. Miller himself gradually withdrew from the leadership of the group and died in 1849. His followers called themselves Adventists; the group was often referred to as Millerites by others.

Ellen Harmon (later known by her married name Ellen White) joined with other Adventists, including Joseph Bates, and her husband James White to form a small group of Baptist, Methodist, Congregational and Presbyterian believers in Washington NH. The church was formally organized as the Seventh-day Adventist Church. on 1863-MAY-21. She believed that the 1844 prediction was correct, but that it referred to the start of an Investigative Judgment. This is a time when Christ will judge the dead and the living on earth for righteousness. She predicted that this would soon be followed by the second coming of Jesus. Late in her career, the church voted her the credentials of an ordained minister. However, she was never actually ordained.

Victor Houteff joined the SDA church in 1919. His beliefs deviated from main-line church doctrine. This became obvious when he wrote his book The Shepherd's Rod in which he outlined errors that he found within the church. He left the church and formed a new sect in 1929 called the Davidian Seventh-day Adventists. This group split further and eventually led to the organization of the theStudents of the Seven Seals, popularly known as the Branch Davidians. In 1993, after a long standoff with the FBI, the Branch Davidian's compound burned down with major loss of life.

The Church Now:

The SDA church has always taken a special interest in health concerns. They have played a major role in health research into the dangers of smoking and of diets rich in cholesterol and fats. Dr. John Kellog, founder of "Kellogg's" and a major supplier of breakfast cereals was a well known member of the church. They promote plans to help people quit smoking and consuming alcohol. They sponsor cooking classes, heart disease teams, narcotics education outreaches and disaster teams. There are 155 SDA hospitals and 276 clinics, dispensaries, etc. in the world. Many congregations have a Dorcas Society which provide food and supplies to the needy. They currently operate 92 post-secondary institutions, almost 1000 secondary schools and over 4000 elementary schools and kindergartens.

The SDA church is a strong supporter of the principle of separation of church and state. They also promote religious liberty, and publish a periodical called Liberty.

As of mid-2000, the Church has about 11 million baptized members, worldwide, who are "of age" and on the "official" roles. The total number of members and adherents is perhaps double that. They have a growth rate of about 11% per year. "Adventists can now be found in 205 of the 229 countries and areas of the world recognized by the United Nations, with 91.6% of membership living outside of North America." 22

By the middle of 2004, the total world church membership reached 13,663,497. The Adventist News Network reports that: "Six of the church's 13 world regions -- Inter-America, South America, East-Central Africa, Southern Africa-Indian Ocean, Southern Asia Pacific and North America -- have memberships of more than 1 million each. The church regions with the largest membership are: Inter-America, with 2.5 million; South America, with 2.3 million; and East-Central Africa with, 2.1 million." 23

Beliefs:

Seventh-day Adventists follow most of the beliefs of conventional conservative Christianity: creation, the fall of mankind in the Garden of Eden, original sin; the virgin birth; the divinity ofChrist; the nature of the Trinity; belief in Satan as a rebellious created being; the inerrancy of Scriptures as they were originally written; the resurrection of Jesus, salvation by the atonement of Christ, etc. However, they differ on a number of other beliefs:

Writings of Ellen White: Ellen White is recognized by the SDA church as having received the gift of prophecy. The written works by Ellen White , "are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction."21 This produced some conflict within the Church when research in the 1980's showed that she had borrowed heavily from contemporary writers.

Immortality: They deny the concept of "innate immortality". They believe that a person is not naturally immortal. When a person dies, they remain unconscious until they are resurrected. Eternal life is a gift which God gives only to righteous Christians; the rest will be ultimately annihilated. Thus, they do not believe that a person goes to heaven or hell immediately upon death.

Jesus' return: The second coming of Christ is imminent. Believers should be ready at all times to be removed from earth to be with God in heaven; others will be destroyed by Christ. Righteous Christians who had previously died will be resurrected at that time and taken to heaven. For the following 1000 years, only Satan and his angels will be living on earth. A second resurrection will occur at the end of that period. The righteous will then return to a cleansed earth, and establish the New Jerusalem. The unrighteous who died before the Second Coming will be resurrected and be consumed by fire and by God, along with Satan and his angels. The universe will then be free of sin and sinners. Hell exists as a lake of fire where the unrighteous are "burned up, utterly destroyed, and cease forever to exist". Hell does not exist as a place of eternal torment.

posted in Recovering Adventists - 1 reply

Connected to Led Zeppelin?!

2005-02-23T05:10:18Z

Does it seem weird that this tribe only has two members and is already connected to Led Zeppelin? I wear my fallen angel, reproduction 1977 concert 'T' Zeppelin shirt with pride as an act of defiance. I love that this tribe is connected to Zeppelin. :-)

posted in Recovering Adventists - 0 replies